Showing posts with label Joe Hale. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Joe Hale. Show all posts

Wednesday, November 4, 2020

Monday, September 16, 2019

The Original Run Time of The Black Cauldron, The Editing and why is there no extended cut


"I get asked all the time "gee, where's the original cut?" I was like "there was no original cut."
Jeffrey got in there pretty quick and trimmed the scary stuff.
 
Nowadays it's not unusual, even back then it wasn't unusual to go in and rework the movie several times until a lot of the movie kept getting reworked and reworked even before Jeffrey and Eisner were there, 

We knew that the Fair Folk section must have gone through 3 or 4 different incarnations before they settled on the final one."


Excerpt from Walt's People Vol 11

https://www.amazon.com/Walts-People-Talking-Disney-Artists/dp/146536840X/ref=pd_ybh_a_13?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SY40CBEW0CEH54HMB32T

Joe Hale: "Somewhere  along this timeline, Michael Eisner took over at Disney and Ron Miller was disposed. Roy E. Disney came back to work in animation. Jeffrey Katzenberg was working directly under Eisner.

I had known Roy off and on for years. I worked with  him a little bit when he was doing his true life adventures  television shows.  I did some of the titles for him. in fact, he was the only one there who ever called me a genius. He was doing a picture called Boy from Bahrain. Roy really liked to start his pictures out with a map showing where they took place. I painted this big map of that area showing the island and the Persian gulf. the first scene in his picture was nothing but ocean, and this Arab sailboat comes crusing along in the water. So I made a tracing of the first frame of that picture, then redrew it onto the map. it showed the whole area and then the camera slowly trucks into the boat, and as you get to a certain point the drawing of the boat lines up with the real Arab sailboat in the live action. Then there was a cross-dissolve, and the boat starts moving. It was a perfect introduction to that film. I never discussed it with Roy. I just did it. I was doing this in a hurry and I was always working on something else at the time an I kind of worked these in. he was really tickled with it.

I worked with Roy on The Black Cauldron a lot more than I did with Katzenberg. Katzenberg came to Disney with an attitude, like with "you guys have failed, and now we're coming in and we are going to show you how pictures are made." We were not prepared for this Eisner/Katzenberg team. It was sort of like The Sopranos took over the studio.

Anyway, Roy was interested in taking over animation, because he had grown up at Walt's knee and knew the importance of animation to Disney. He had his company, Shamrock Productions, that was very successful, and he had tons of money, but he wanted to get back into filmmaking. I was happy to see Roy's interest, because I felt that he would be protective of animation. There were rumors that Eisner might get rid of animation altogether since he was more interested in making live-action pictures.

One day Jeffrey wanted to see The Black Cauldron, so Roy and I ran it for him. When it was over he said, "Cut 10 minutes out of it."

Now the picture at that time only ran 82 minutes. Ron had always said, "I don't want this picture to run over 80 minutes," but it did go two minutes over. Eighty two minutes is not long for a picture.
Usually they run closer to two hours. so I asked, "What is it you want cut?" He said, "You just figure it out. Well that: shorten this or whatever."

Roy and I got together on a Moviola and we ran reels and tried to figure out what scenes that we could cut without destroying the story. we cut six minutes, I believe, which is a lot of costly animation footage. We ran the picture again for Katzenberg. He said, "Now is that ten minutes?" I think Roy said, "No, we only were able to cut out six minutes." Katzenberg replied, "I said ten minutes," and he left. By this time, I realized this was more than cutting a picture. This was a power grab. He wanted Roy to know that he was the boss. when we had cut about 8 1/2 minutes, we ran it again, he insisted that ten minutes had to be cut. By the time we cut ten minutes, Roy and I agreed that the story began to suffer. We finally cut twelve minutes for the sake of continuity.

The animation building was being remodeled into smaller offices, so they moved us over near WED into a warehouse with no windows. It was a terrible place to work."


82 minutes.


Edit: Even though Joe Hale remembered Jeffery Katzenberg cut 12 minutes, but before Katzenberg the work in progress was 82 minutes?

I have excerpts from Christopher Finch's The Art of Walt Disney 1995 edition that mentioned "2 or 3" minutes were cut. 

"Most people in and around the feature animation department believe very strongly that Roy Disney deserves credit for saving Disney animation from possible extinction. Certainly, he took control of the department when it was at its artistic and commercial heights. Had he not stepped forward at the critical moment, it is conceivable that executives whose backgrounds were exclusively in live-action films might eventually have decided that the animation department was a costly luxury the Studio could no longer afford.
     
"Roy was the hero," says producer Don Hann. "Without him there might never have been Beauty and the Beast or Aladdin. He believed in animation, he understood it, and fought for it."
   
Disney himself admits to having some early doubts about the wisdom of his choice.
    "The first thing I did," he recalls, "was to run the production reel of The Black Cauldron, which was close to being finished. I had heard there were problems, of course, but I wasn't prepared for what I saw. I looked at it and knew we were in deep trouble. There were bits that worked on their own, but they didn't hang together. The story got lost partway into the movie, and the movie was dark in an unrelieved way, without the kind of light relief that's need to make the bad guys palatable."
   
One of Michael Eisner's first executive acts had been to appoint Jeffrey Katzenberg - former head of production at paramount - to the position of chairman of Walt Disney Pictures. Ot would be Katzenberg's responsibility, in tandem with Roy Disney, to determine the future of feature animation.

Like Disney, Katzenberg screened the production reel of The Black Cauldron and, like Disney, he was horrified by what he saw. Drawing on his experience with live-action movies, he announced that he would take the expensive production (it had cost twenty-five million dollars at that point) into the editing room and recut it. Katzenberg did not realize (or perhaps care) that such a notion was looked on as sacrilege in animation circles. 

As explained in chapter 2, an animated movie is layed out in storyboards and pre-edited by layout artists and scene planners before animation ever begins. The idea that an executive would have the effrontery to cut a Disney animated feature seemed almost scandalous,
and it appeared to augur badly for the future the department. If the new regime was capable of committing such crimes against the nature of the medium, how could it be expected to support animation in the future?
  
In reality, it was the animation department that had created the monster. Katzenberg was merely trying to save what he could of a sizable investment in the only way he knew how.
   
"We had to get in there with a scalpel," he says. "I know this was very disturbing for some people, and I understood this, but I was not imposing my personal values on what I saw as our responsibility to the  consumers to the members of the public who vote at the box office."
 
 Katzenberg managed to trim two or three minutes from the film, but it was too late to alter the overall conception." 





Why doesn't Disney do extended cuts?

Probably for the same reasons that lesser films were not given the same extravagant bonus features treatment as the crown jewels (Walt Disney Signature Collection) on the Blu rays and DVDs

The lesser films didn't do as well in theaters and home video.

although Fantasia, Pinocchio, Bambi and Sleeping Beauty started as flops eventually made their way to crown jewel status through their theatrical reissues.

Also most of the films or all are under the alleged "theatrical cuts only policy'. Even with or without this policy, it never crossed the executives mind on doing an extended cut of this movie. 
what probably exist in the Disney film inventory of what was cut is color dailies, workprints (aka work in progress film), theatrical trailers, the electronic press kit, pencil animation, the master negative of the film (may not have every deleted trims), storyboards and photostats of storyboards from the Disney animation research library.
So if there are people at Disney that want to do a restored extended cut of The Black Cauldron, they'll have to go through a lot of hoops. 
basically, if a bunch of the many different branches of the company on their own decision to be on board with this: the board of directors, the marketing teams, investors, shareholders, Disney+, the music department, the animation department, the Walt Disney Archives, the film restorationists and film preservationist teams.
If they are on board it will happen, if the executives or even the music department, animation department or the film restorationists film preservationists, investors, shareholders, Disney+ and marketers are not on board, then it's not happening.
Then again, with a name like Disney, a name that people still perceive as kid/family entertainment, do you think Disney would do this? 
especially with the deleted trim of one the horned king's huntsman melting from the green mist from the cauldron? 
who knows.
yeah, we're long past the 1970's and 1980's when teenagers and older audiences were avoiding animated features or as one of them put it "wouldn't be caught dead near a Disney film". over the years and decades, we had animated family comedy tv shows with adult humor (The Simpsons and Family guy), and cartoons animation of many different genres even family cartoons with grotesque imagery, (like Cartoon Networks Adventure Time and Disney Television Animation's Gravity Falls)

Ok on to what Disney did extended cuts of:
There was a time when Disney (and Anchor Bay) made restored extended cuts of Disney films

even Disney made extended “Special Edition” cuts of some of their animated Disney renaissance films as well as their live action films. 

somewhere around the early to mid 2010’s Disney quit doing that, and for most of their classic films that extended were back to their theatrical cuts.



Bedknobs and Broomsticks 25th Anniversary edition  139 mins 1996 (Laserdisc 1996/VHS Disney DVD 2001/Disney DVD 2009) restoration director: Scott MacQueen


The Happiest Millionaire Roadshow Cut 172 mins  1999 (Anchor Bay VHS DVD 1999/Disney DVD 2004)
http://articles.latimes….9/entertainment/ca-60536


Fantasia 60th Anniversary Roadshow Cut 2000 124 mins (Disney DVD 2000/Disney Blu-ray and DVD 2010) restoration director: Scott MacQueen

added scenes with Deems Taylor’s onscreen appearance and more footage of the orchestra was restored. unfortunately, the soundtrack for Deems voice was shortened for the 1946/1956 reissues.
so, Cory Burton was brought in to redub Deems.


there was an attempt to make a longer version of Watcher in the Woods (1980) 
Although Disney (when Eisner was CEO) put a stop to that. More about it here:
https://www.thedigitalcinema.info/single-post/2018/02/07/THE-MYSTERY-BEHIND-THE-MYSTERY


Beauty and Beast Special Edition 91 mins 2002
musical song number “Human Again” added.

The Lion King Special Edition 90 mins 2003
musical song number “Morning Report” added. (currently as a bonus feature)

Pocahontas Special Edition 84 mins 2005
musical song number “If I Never Knew You” added. (currently as a bonus feature)
and also, there were extended cuts of Muppet’s Christmas Carol (1992) (currently in the extras section of the theatrical cut on Disney+) and Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe (2005)








Thursday, May 16, 2019

We Aren't Making a Musical.



Excerpt from Walt's People Vol 11
https://www.amazon.com/Walts-People-Talking-Disney-Artists/dp/146536840X/ref=pd_ybh_a_13?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SY40CBEW0CEH54HMB32T

Producer Joe Hale: "When I took over the picture, I wanted to add some songs
because I felt it was kind of heavy and dark.

I went to Ron and talk to him about it,
but Ron said "no that decision has already been made.
we aren't making a musical."

Anyway when I finished the picture I went to Ron and I said are you happy with the picture?
he said "I couldn't be happier."

Lenghty excerpt from An Interview with Susan Sheridain (voice actress for Princess Eilonwy)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_rEdDda-C8&t=684s

Movie Reviewer Jambareeqi: "You're most well known voice acting role for playing Princess Eilonwy in uh Black Cauldron
what was it like working for a major animation company like Disney?"

Susan Sheridan: "It was fantastic. It was an absolute joy, because
I was employed over a period of three years and i had to keep coming back
to record and then they put the animation to the voice If thats the way round they do it.

And those three years I went every spring uhh I think twice a year
and you can imagine it was absolute heaven working in the Walt Disney studios was an absolute joy
and the people were fabulous to work for.

However

The film itself costs millions and millions of dollars as well the most expensive cartoon they every made
uhh was not a major success the expected it to be. which I think is very sad

and one of the reasons is I think is it's a very dark film
and it didn't have enough light, a lot of shade, not enough light
and I kept saying when we're doing it "Look, couldn't we have a song?" I 'm a singer.
Nigel Hawthorne could sing, and he played a character who is a bard Fflewddur Fflam the bard.

We should've had songs or two. and they didn't take taken uhh and they didn't do it
and that was a great shame though it would been then more moments of lightness.
and John Hurt who played the Horned King you know fantastic but, terribly scary.

my uhh neighbors I went to the premiere with various children my neighbor's children
and sheee(laughing) the mother said "My god kids, we'll never sleep at night.".
(laughing)It was

It is a scary film. I mean now it's kind of become sot of a cult thing
and you know I think children are much more used to scariness and darkness.

But then in the well what was in the 80's it was it was very dark.
and I I I've I've regretted that they didn't make it umm more fun."

While the film is not a musical, the film had one song: Fflewddur's Song sung by the bard Fflewdddur Fflam.  It's in the film but not in it's entirety.


Fflewddur's Song
https://www.amazon.com/Disneys-Lost-Chords-Russell-Schroeder/dp/0615206336/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=78340254633777&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=disney%27s+lost+chords&qid=1558055587&s=gateway&sr=8-1

"From Shore To Shore
Great Deeds of Courage Never Sung Before

and If I find them
I'll Strum and Rhyme Them
and Earn Myself a Great Name

The World Would Applaude Me
His Praise Will Reward Me
And I Flewddur Fflam will find fame"

excerpt from The Look Back Machine's Musical Homecoming: Disney's The Great Mouse Detective
http://lookbackmachine.libsyn.com/musical-homecoming-the-great-mouse-detective

Melissa Manchester:  The Great Mouse Detective was interesting because Disney stopped using songs in their animated features. just ridiculous.

But since they have success with it anyway, that was their policy for minutes, and the great mouse detective was trying to reintroduce the concept of songs in animated features.

Monday, March 4, 2019

an interesting Chicago Tribine Article




https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-08-03-8502210564-story.html
Chicago Tribune article from August 3, 1984 (Katzenberg arrived at Disney in October of that same year)

"The walls of the Animation Building at Walt Disney Studios are lined with reminders of the past. Original artwork from ''Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs,'' ''Pinocchio'' and various other vintage cartoon features are encased along the long corridors. Even the slightly musty smell, like that of an old school building, takes one back to the time when Walt Disney walked the halls as the head of this fantasy factory.
'
'It is different now than when Walt was around,'' said producer Joe Hale about the five arduous years it took to produce ''The Black Cauldron.'' ''But this is the first time we`ve been given the resources to make an animated movie that we hope will remind people of the richness of those early Disney films.''

Hale is hoping that the $25 million production of ''The Black Cauldron''--the most expensive animated film in history--will attract a large enough audience to justify the expense.

Based on ''The Chronicles of Prydain,'' a series of five books by Lloyd Alexander, the film tells the story of a young assistant pig keeper named Taran who must prevent the evil Horned King from taking over the world. His only method of destroying the king`s horrific kingdom is to eliminate the Black Cauldron. This ancient kettle has the power to resurrect all the dead warriors from all previous wars, allowing them to unleash their evil fury on the innocent kingdom. Taran must reach the cauldron and do away with it before the Horned King has it in his long, gnarled fingers.

Taran`s difficult assignment pales beside the real-life task Hale faced in bringing the story to life as an animated film. Although production began five years ago, preproduction work began in 1973 when Disney Studios bought the rights to Alexander`s books. When the financing was finally completed in late 1979, it marked a renewed commitment to the full, rich animation that had been Disney`s trademark.

That return to Disney`s roots in cartoon features was made necessary by the failure of such live-action Disney films such as ''Hot Lead and Cold Feet,'' ''Tron,'' ''The Devil and Max Devlin,'' ''Watcher in the Woods'' and
''Something Wicked This Way Comes.''

''The executives have been great,'' said Hale, referring to such people as Disney Productions` new president, Michael Eisner. ''They`ve left us alone during production and are supporting the film with a substantial advertising and marketing campaign.''

It has been a long journey for Hale. After five years, 2,519,200 drawings, 400 gallons of paint, 15,000 pencils, 300 erasers, 34 miles of film stock and more than a million hours of labor, ''The Black Cauldron'' has opened in theaters nationwide.

Hale, who started as a Disney animator on ''Sleeping Beauty'' in 1951 and subsequently worked on ''101 Dalmatians,'' ''Mary Poppins,'' ''Bedknobs and Broomsticks'' and ''The Fox and the Hound,'' said he believes that the key to a successful, long-term project is teamwork.
''It`s like casting a live-action movie,'' he said. ''If you cast the right people in the right roles, you`re on the right track.''

Unlike their live-action counterparts, animated characters must be created from the blank page. Once the physical characteristics are developed

--height, weight, coloring, gait--the filmmakers also must find the right voices.
''You have much greater control over the material in animation, but it`s a heck of a lot harder,'' Hale said.

When it came to selecting the voices, it was a team decision.
''We heard countless audition tapes before we even started the animation process,'' said Ted Berman, codirector, along with Richard Rich, of ''The Black Cauldron.'' ''You listen to voice after voice after voice until you get the one that`s right. It`s often boring, definitely time-consuming and, ultimately, absolutely necessary. If you don`t get the right voice, the character bombs . . . and if one character bombs, so does the movie.''

Hale picked up a small three-dimensional model of a pig from his desk.
''This is Hen Wen,'' he said, in the same respectful tone other producers might use when introducing an actress. ''She`s crucial to the film`s story.'' But at first, the Disney team hadn`t figured out how she should sound or how big she should be or even what color eyes she should have. They also were not sure whether she`d be able to speak English. In live action, questions like that are already answered.

''In animation,'' Hale said, ''we literally start from scratch.''
It took two years for Hale and his staff of more than 300 to decide about Hen Wen. They gave her blue eyes, a body in perfect scale with her companions and a voice that sounds like a pig. The animators had to translate the three- dimensional model of Hen Wen into a two-dimensional character.
''It all seems so simple when you see it on the screen,'' Hale said,
''and that`s the way we want it to be. But it`s not.''

The production team brings each single frame through an extraordinarily lengthy process: recording dialogue, drawing the layout, roughing out the animation, shooting the preliminaries on film, improving the drawings, shooting it again, transferring the drawings to clear acetate pictures called cels, mixing the paints, painting and shooting the cels and backgrounds, coloring, recording the sound effects and music and balancing the color. And these are just part of the process.

''The Black Cauldron'' has received a PG rating, instead of the usual Disney G. Like ''Snow White,'' which changed ratings from G to PG during its re-release, ''Cauldron'' contains some terrifying moments.

But the change in rating doesn`t signify a simple alteration in a rating; it represents a different direction for Disney.

''We decided to go back to the essence of the great animated features of the past,'' Hale said. ''We want real heroes and, to have real heroes, you need real villains. We wanted the Horned King to be as formidable as the wicked stepmother in `Snow White,` and I hope we succeeded.''
Disney Studios has been so optimistic about the future of animated features that it already has another due out next summer called ''Basil of Baker Street,'' starring Mickey Mouse as a Holmesian detective in Victorian England.

''Who knows?'' Hale asked. ''Maybe I`ll be around here for another few decades.''

"Mickey Mouse as a Holmesian detective in Victorian England"?
might be a joke an anecadote, or maybe misinformation.

Monday, September 24, 2018

30 years later (on October 2015)



an event I never gone to

on October of 2015, The Black Cauldron had a showing at the El Captain Theatre

you can read the article here:
https://www.laughingplace.com/w/articles/2015/10/31/the-black-cauldron-at-the-el-capitan-theatre/


                 Don Hann producer of The Lion King (1994) and  Beauty and the Beast (1991) promoting  the El Captain Theatre The Black Cauldron screening event.

                                 "The Way It Was Meant To Be Seen" on the big screen
                       
          the  July 1985 Theatrical cut,  not the 1984 work in progress cut.  please don't be disappointed

             
                                               
          footage from the panal discussion, (only the end part of it, with the alternate fairfolk scene.)    




Friday, September 21, 2018

Technirama widescreen and The Layout Man's Picture




                 short video essay by the Geroge Eastman House on the Topic of Technirama


Excerpt from Animated View's interview with Black Cauldron Producer Joe Hale:
http://animatedviews.com/2010/the-black-cauldron-producer-joe-hale-talks-munchings-and-crunchings/

AV: The film was shot in 70mm. Was that a tricky part of producing the movie?

JH: Actually, that part was not that difficult because we’ve been doing films in CinemaScope. It was a just matter of having a lot more animation and bigger backgrounds. So, it was probably a bigger problem for animation than it was for layout.

AV: Layout is somehow one of the most obscure parts of the animation process. Can you tell me about that not-so-well-known art?

JH: Basically, there were a lot of very talented animators. There were the Nine Old Men, and other animators that were talented as well. So, there was – God, I don’t know – thirty animators working at the time and I figured that I didn’t want to be an animator.

So, I got to my boss, Andy Engman, about getting into Layout. What the Layout man does is: he takes the storyboard and breaks it down into individual scenes. And then you draw, you “lay out” that scene and you make drawings of the characters. You work very closely with the director and you have a lot of input.

On Cauldron, being a Layout man, I was heavy on layout. Cauldron is really a layout man picture. What I wanted to do was show the audience the world that they’re placed in. So, I wanted a lot of long shots.

The way we approached layout in those days, like in the pictures that Walt was involved in, was we approached each scene as if they were a painting that you could frame and hang on a wall. We made each scene very attractive. The layout man is like an art director. He’s certainly like an assistant director combined with art directing.

Somewhere along the line, they started to call it Layout, but most people never knew what layout really meant. The Layout men are the unsung heroes of animation because nobody knows what we do. When you look a scene on the screen after it’s painted, the people say “oh, what a beautiful painting!”. The background men pretty much get the credits for it. But basically, it was all designed by a layout man with just a pencil, a black and white drawing that the animator and the background man could follow.

Monday, August 27, 2018

Deleted subplot: Dalben gets Captured by The Horned King


Excerpt from:
"The Black Cauldron: Disney steps back into darkness with a robust Sword & Sorcery tale" - Dan Scapperotti
from "Cinefantastique" Vol. 13 No. 5 pg. 26-27
1983

https://www.dvdizzy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23758

"Joe Hale gives a quick run through of the plot: the cauldron of the title is in the possession of the evil Horned King who immerses his dead enemies in it. Later, they emerge as the invincible, soulless Cauldron Born Warriors. With his army of the dead, the Horned King plans to conquer the peaceful land of Pyrdain. The wicked wizard, however, must perform a human sacrifice before each full moon in order to maintain the life of his army and the cauldron.

The Horned King captures Dallben, a wise and good enchanter, as his next victim, and Taran, the enchanter's assistant, sets out to rescue him. Taran is then seized by the evil King and taken back to his castle. Upon their arrival, however, the Horned King discovers that the cauldron has vanished; Taran realizes that if he can find and destroy the cauldron, he can save Pyrdain. Through the aid of Eilonwy, a young princess and enchantress in her own right, Taran escapes and begins his search for the lost cauldron.

On his mission, Taran meets an array of unusual and offbeat characters: Flewddur Fflam, a king who would prefer traveling the countryside, strumming a tune; Doli, an elfin character, who manages to harness the power of invisibility; and Gurgi, part man, part animal, who desires "crunchings and munchings," but fears "smackings and whackings on my poor tender head."
Another strange creature is Hen Wen, an oracular pig who tells Taran that the cauldron is in the clutches of three witches. Taran searches for and eventually finds the hags, who trade the cauldron for Taran's sword, his most prized possession. The Horned King learns of the cauldron's new location, and taking the captive Dallben along, leads his ghoulish army into attack against Taran and his band.

Alterations had to be made in adapting the large scale epic of the Chronicles to the screen. Much of Disney's BLACK CAULDRON is based on the introductory novel, The Book of Three, but several of the movie's sequences are lifted from the second book. Also, The Horned King becomes the chief villain of the film, although he doesn't even survive the first of five books.

Joe Hale, who previously directed animation special effects on Disney's science fiction epic, THE BLACK HOLE, wants to make THE BLACK CAULDRON something truly spectacular, and began looking into the possibilities of using holography.

"We're talking to designers over at WED, who design rides at Disneyland and Disney World," Hale said. "Now that they're winding up at EPCOT, we're going to have them work on an effect for the next to the last sequence. We want an effect where the Cauldron-Born Warriors float right out over the audience and into the back of the theater. Our engineers already have the capability to use holograms better than anybody around. Right now, they can give us a hologram of a cauldron in the theater lobby with an endless stream of Cauldron Born coming out and going right up to the top of the theater. There is a lot of experimental work being done on this. WED is sending over a creative team to see what they can do for us. We're going to have some kind of spectacular effect, something out of the oridinary.

Voices being used for the characters include Freddie Jones (Dallben), Grant Bardsley (Taran), Susan Sheridan (Eilonwy), Nigel Hawthorne (Flewdur), John Hurt (Horned King), John Byner (Gurgi), Jonathan Winters (King Eidellig) and Phil Fondacar (Creeper, the dwarf). An agent in England sent the studio tapes of dozens of voices from which to select the characters. It turned out that the voice chosen for Taran belonged to a 14 year old and that for Princess Eilonwy came from a 34-year-old actress, yet the two characters in the film are the same age. "



              

Wednesday, July 4, 2018

The Deleted Scenes and alternate scenes


Floyd Norman: Being back in the Disney family meant I could attend screenings of the ill fated animated feature and each new screening grew successively worse.
The directors began shifting the order of sequences as if that would garner a more compelling narrative.
Sadly, nothing appeared to help and the arrival of new Disney management in 1984 only drove the nail deeper.
http://floydnormancom.sq...5/4/1/the-black-cauldron





                                                               A video from Dennis

                                one of the storyboards for the alternate prologue for the film

The alternate narration for these storyboards made it's way to Disney and Sierra's Dos computer game from 1987 and promotional stuff for the film.

Lengthy excerpt from
Mike Peraza's comment to  Celbi from the comment section of Mike Peraza's Caulrdron of Chaos article
mike perazaSeptember 9, 2010 at 3:15 PM
"Yes there were multiple openings that were conceptualized by different people.
I worked with Don Griffith (Great Art Director) and Vance Gerry (an outstanding storyman and artist)
on one version that showed the Horned King and his gang burning down a village. Sweeping flames were used as transitions between scenes of destruction.

We wanted a contrast to the peace and quiet of Taran's farm life.

Also worked on a dark version of faire folk that was kind of cool but gave the Horned King and the Witches too much competition by being creepy
(which made sense why they cut that version) along with a bright glowing version that looked like the fairies came off a cereal box."



(James Coleman's concept art. Could this be the "creepy" version of the faire folk scene?)

Mike Peraza's comment continued: "Talk about night and day concepts, lol. I think they kept the glowing faire folk.

I want to also add that we had a very talented layout staff along with story department that created a tremendous amount of beautiful art.
There was a lot of work to be shared and cut into the film as well as cut out."






The Black Cauldron Deleted Scenes Investigation (Part 1) - Soundtrack gaps and Jump-cuts.
a fellow from YouTube named Dennis   has put together four videos investigating the deleted trims of Disney’s The Black Cauldron. 
Warning: the last one in this video is very Indiana Jones’ Raiders esq violent. it has one the Horned King's barbarians get melted. (Even in the thumbnail picture on the YouTube video)

Excerpts from the documentaries Waking Sleeping Beauty (2009) and The Making of The Little Mermaid (2006)
 Jeffrey Katzenberg: In the first couple of weeks I was at the studio, I saw The Black Cauldron. It was a very dark and a very troubled movie. 
“This is just way, way, way too violent and too scary. You have to edit some of these things out.” They said, “Well, you can’t edit an animated movie.” I said, “well, of course you can.” And they said, “No you can’t.”

animator Phil Nibbelink: "I had a very complicated scene of one of the huntsmen turning into a deathless warrior landing on the ground and shaking, and all his flesh bubbling and boiling and dripping off. A lot of drawings very complicated. 
And they got it all the way to color, and that's when Katzenberg came to look at the movie and the first thing he said, "You got to cut that scene out, my 3-year-old will be frightened by it." 
That was a crying shame because so much work went into it. yeah, it was pretty abrupt."

Lengthy excerpt from
Mike Peraza's comment to Chris from the comment section of Mike Peraza's Cauldron of Chaos article
I have to say that I believe the extended gory Cauldron born scenes were cut out for a good reason, they just looked bad.
They were not only on the more grotesque side visually but animated through and into slow holds along with color models that were realistically and unimaginatively stark as opposed to more inventive lighting and color.

I would have liked to seen more shadows of the undead coming to life and then intercut some shocking but sparsely lit creatures that would crawl in and out of shadows.
I wish they had played on the horrified reactions to the undead from their "victims" rather than linger on the creatures themselves.
Sometimes an evil force can be hidden partly from the audience and have a much greater impact in my opinion.
A good example of this would be the monster from Ridley Scott's "Alien" classic which was seen only in snippets here and there but had an enormous chilling effect on the audience.
If it had been held in sharp brightly lit rooms, it wouldn't have had the same effect.



                                     
                                The Black Cauldron Deleted Scenes Investigation (Part 2) 
                                                        another video from Dennis

   in the pencil test at the end of this video  Fflewddur's voice in the end doesn't sound like Nigel   Hawthorne. To me Fflewddur's voice sounds like one of Disney Character Voices International.


                                                   Deleted Alternate Fair Folk Scene
        from the bonus features section of the 25th anniversary DVD of The Black Cauldron
a reconstruction of sorts by Disney Home Entertainment.  The voice work sounds like Disney Character Voices International. not those of the film's original voice cast.


according to the documentary Backstage at Disney (1983) producer Joe Hale mentions that Jonathan Winters is the voice of King Eidilleg.


In the final film Jonathan was replaced by Arthur Mallet.

the work in progress voices are likely lost. (even  Jonathan Winters' voice work)   




Lengthy excerpt from
Producer Joe Hale's comment to Jeff from the comment section of Mike Peraza's Cauldron of Chaos article
bevhale September 17, 2010 at 6:53 PM


Jonathon Winters did record the dialogue for King Eiddieg, and it was cut into the work reel. I made the decision not to use him because his voice was too recognizable.

It always bothers me when I can recognize the voice of an animated character. I feel it conflicts with the believability of the character.

Management wanted me to use big stars for the voices of the Witches such as Bette Davis or Lauren Bacall. As you know, I did not use a star, but, rather, I found three ladies whose voices suited the characters.

Joe Hale, Producer TBC
http://michaelperaza.blogspot.com/2010/09/cauldron-of-chaos-part-3.html


  excerpts from
Starlog Magazine Issue 097
August 1985
article: Animating "The Black Cauldron"
By Brian Lowery


https://archive.org/details/starlog_magazine-097/page/n63/mode/2up

Deja worked primarily on the film's opening segment and on Taran throughout.
"I also did the final version of the Fairfolk sequence and some of the witches at the end, which was the most fun." he says.


The Mention of the Fairfolk sequence draws groans from both animators--as they remember a scene which was done and redone again and again.
"There were lots of changes, nothing but changes," Deja acknowledges. "There were whole sequences cut that were halfway animated. There was major surgery throughout the whole thing."

It was, undoubtedly, a baptism of fire for nearly everyone who worked on the film. Hale compares Cauldron to the classic Fantasia in terms of difficulty.

"It was hard to train animators on this picture," Hale admits. "I wasn't sure we were ready to do it. The new animators not only had to be as good as people with 30 years experience who had just retired, they had to be better, because this is a more difficult picture. 

"Fortunately, we had enough young animators with that raw talent, but it still took a long time to get them going."






                                   The Black Cauldron Deleted Scenes Investigation (Part 3)
                                                         another video from Dennis